Conducted June 4, 1981
Source scans here.
Translated by Ray; Minor edits by R.N.
Translation notes in brackets [ ].
Intro:
As many of you know, The Castle of Cagliostro was released almost two years ago. Nonetheless, we asked two of its creators to make time for this interview, not to mention in their busy tight schedule.* They started talking about the atmosphere of the production, then they started jumping to the topic of “hardware”** as main axis and other peripheral thoughts. I soon found myself listening to their conversation deeply and almost forgot that it was an interview.
*[The writer even mentions that he feels sorry for the trouble, which seems a little too personal and awkward since it is his job. I guess he means he has such respect and awe for those two creators, to talk about the time they were working on that film together. -Ray]
**["Hardware" was written in katakana to emphasize that it is an English word; in the meantime, the Kanji used for this term was "mechanics" -Ray]
“This Lupin would look good with disposable cigarette lighters.”
Otsuka:
First off, back then, it was as if Miya-san (Hayao Miyazaki) faced a proposition to create what kind of Lupin you would come up with including its title “Castle of Cagliostro.” What I mean by that is, by then, Lupin and its world had many interpretations including the TV series which I created 10 years ago and later on the first movie (“Mamo”) was already out when we started discussing the plan for this next film. Of course there was also Monkey (Punch) -san’s original comic to base all of it off. Even in his comic, there is a world of differences compared to when he first started it and now.
So there was a basic premise that Lupin can be interpreted in many different ways, then we started discussing “how we should draw it this time” for this next film piece. In the actual timeline it was May of 1979 that I asked Miya-san to join. The rest of the plan was completely blank; we supposed that we could start working on the drawings/sketches in maybe from July. So we had two months for Miya-san to develop this Lupin, what kind of element he would add and how he would put them together to make it a story of Lupin. Then we spent next four months creating the actual film. That was how this film piece was made. As a result, this film became pretty intense and enriched in flavor.
Now that the years been past, I am surprised to find that we left all the “expectation/calculation/speculation” behind and created this story with a force of mere creativity. In actuality, the creation became rather hard, especially for Miya-san’s part, but I am sure that his interpretation of Lupin was correct that time. I felt “Yes, this is Lupin for sure.” (as he watched the complete film? He is describing as if he had a certain Eureka moment)
Regarding the cars, this film carries the line from latter parts of First TV series and all the mechanics, like the tiny Fiat 500, you see? He blew them up in bigger scale.
The autogyro and the torpedo boat was Miya-san’s taste. Miya-san knows all about 2CV, and I used to drive Fiat 500 myself so it was really easy for us to draw them in details. So all the cars were familiar for us. Nothing out of the line of our normal taste and imagination. In other words, we did not spend much time researching those.
Miyazaki:
Err… to be honest, when I was first asked to join, I thought “why now?” For me, and I think Otsuka-san feels much the same, but Lupin was a character living in 60s to 70s. So I thought the theme to use Lupin was bit old and dated.
Even the original comic book, I heard that Monkey Punch spent a lot of effort on this because he wanted to make his name big in comic industry as a new comer. So it was interesting. I liked the energy of this comic. Beyond his drawing sense, I felt the overwhelming energy and hungry spirit from the author. That is why Lupin the Third himself got much of the same characteristics: the hungry spirit. He was not a cool, unaffected fellow. I believe he was a reflection of Monkey Punch himself back then.
We found ourselves in common with his hungry spirit as anime creators. So as we created the animation, we felt these characters to be so similar and close to us, even when I first read the comic I felt so. Although the first TV series was not commercially successful, we felt that we had a lot of fun and did what we wanted to do…
Otsuka:
Yeah, we had a blast making it, didn’t we?
Miyazaki:
Yes, quite a lot, indeed. Or maybe I want to believe so simply because I was one of the main staff of that series.
Anyway, then after the first TV series comes the second, and then the movie (“Mamo”)... I felt that Lupin had seen all the glory and ended all its chapters. So I was quite astonished when they were starting up again.
I questioned myself. What do I want to do with it now? For what kind of audience? Maybe I am being over melodramatic about it, but I did not know what I was doing this all for. Of course, there were some materials and motifs which I always had in mind, but I had to rethink of the character “Lupin” all over again, who he is, what he is.
First of all, the structure of Lupin is a very loose one. There is no “unchangeable/untouchable image of Lupin the Third” which we are bound to. It can take anything. We can throw anything at it. It encompasses anything and everything. So as Otsuka-san said, there are lots of different interpretations. If there are 100 people (viewer or creator, he did not specify), there are 100 different Lupin exists as well. And when opportunity came around and I had to create my version of Lupin, all I could think was the image of Lupin lived in his glory in 60s and early 70s, now living in the regret and shame for his young and wild life.
So even the selections of cars in the film, I did not make them too contemporary. I did not want to go too antique either, but I limited the selection of cars from 50s and 60s. A torpedo boat seems bit too outdated, however, I was trying not to show motorboat or anything new of that sort to keep the tone of the film. It was rather a fashion statement and approach when determining the design of the animation.
Then I thought this Lupin was probably a kind of man who used to drove Mercedes Benz SSK but now he is out of that phase and bored with it. He realized, after all, it does not matter what car he drives, as long as it drives, and he is just driving around with the most basic car. He is over the fame and status which came with the money. He is no longer a man who would pull out the most rare and expensive cigarette lighter to light his cigarette anymore. He does not give a single damn about such thing. He is fine with the cheap disposable one as long as it does the job. That was my image of Lupin. I felt like I finally understood Lupin. And based on that image, I created this film.
I think that underlying philosophy was displayed and carried throughout this film. For example, he is using a disposable lighter to light his cigar and eating instant cup noodle. He is returned to the basics. Recently, there is a trend which people wear designer brand closes and items, but he is the one who would see it all from outside and thinking “it is only country bumpkins who would do that.” He stopped caring about those fashion and status ten years ago. The same goes for his comrades.
Even when it comes to love, he keeps the same stance. Maybe if it was ten years ago, he would have fallen for love, but now he knows he is not that young nor innocent, so he excuse himself as “old man” and draw the line. (laugh)
I felt that popular image of Lupin was very close to the players/hustlers who would hang around in Casinos. To me, that did not seem cool. That would be more close to, let’s say the politicians going to Las Vegas for vacations? (probably 80’s reference for expensive vacations or show offs) It is unsophisticated/unrefined and shows that they have no class. But Lupin stopped aspiring to be rich one day.
When I think of Lupin’s nationality, I can only think of him as an Italian. He does not carry the espri of French people; rather, he has more of the [unrefined/unsophisticated] roughness of Italian people, in my personal opinion.
Otsuka:
His cheerful and sunny disposition, too.
Miyazaki:
Yeah, he must be an Italian with poor upbringing, don’t you think? He was probably born and raised in Naples; he was smart and capable of lots of things, but his family is poor and only had one choice to become a thief. That’s why I had Fiat 500 in my mind.
My image of Lupin is a mixture of French, noisy Italian and shallow Japanese personality, I suppose. So I hear the fans out there who are looking for dark, serious and calculative mastermind Lupin were greatly disappointed by this film. That was due to the discrepancy of their image and ours because I created this Lupin to be nice and even admit he has weakness.
To show this is an independent new film, I had to make a choice between making a story that is simply pleasing to the eyes of existing Lupin fans or making a story that even the people who can only think of Arsene Lupin by Maurice Leblanc, can understand and enjoy. If I target the existing fans, I thought it would probably ended up being no more than insider joke. I did not want that. I thought that this film should be universally appealing. I wanted to make a film which if, for instance, a random old man from a mountain in a foreign country happens to come across, even he could enjoy. So I made my decision. I cut out the thought of making a story for Lupin fans and started with a blank canvas where I only understand this Lupin was a thief. Of course, I had to leave the reference of old Lupin in the film here and there to as certain development point. That resulted in the insider joke which I was originally trying to avoid. I left the scenes from the first TV series and Lupin even mentioned the old times. (the famous line of him being “greenhorn”) Especially, Goemon’s character, if you watch the series for the first time, you would not understand the existence of his character at all, I am sure. But I left it to viewer’s imagination and did not fill in the details too much because that would be a distraction for the main story and theme of the film. Besides, he is a side character. The only thing the viewer needs to know and understand is that Goemon is Lupin’s comrade. Those were the some of the compromises which we made.
Besides the plot and for the visual design, when we had to choose motorcycle, anybody would choose Harley-Davidson bike, but we selected the older model from WWII era and not the brand new model. That was our twist. Otsuka-san and I have the same hobby and taste, so that part was easy to decide. When picking out a bus, we crossed off the big tall one which we see on the street today, and chose rather small round one that we see in old books. Our basic image was coming from a same place and time.
Otsuka:
Right. We were creating an imaginary nation (of Cagliostro) and picked the models which are suited for that image. The rest was up to our taste. It was more of Miya-san’s taste. I had a say in choosing police trucks. It was a Canadian truck from WWII.
Interviewer:
The one looked like Matador Army Truck?
Otsuka:
It was called CMP 60. Although I figure nobody would be able to tell. But I wanted the viewer to feel something from it. The oldness of it. It is not so much of memoirs, but we wanted to show the consistency of the world, it was like “a wafer” that surrounds the medicine, you know? (Direct translation, I don’t know what he means. In Japanese, “a wafer” is often used as a metaphor for indirectness. Much like “a veil”)
Miyazaki:
The characters like Old Zenigata, are a typical example. He was born in 20s, he might be still wearing loincloths as everyday underwear. He would look so out of place if we place him in a modern car. It is just not sit well with our image of him. We would like him to ride the [Nissan] Bluebird with its sloped rear. Back then, Japanese cars had possessed more uniqueness and personality in the shape. Nowadays, they are all cookie-cutter and look the same.
“60s is the time in which Machines possessed uniqueness/personality.”
Interviewer:
Then, you two were always in agreement when it comes to deciding on the Lupin’s image and choosing the mechanical items of this film?
Otsuka:
I guess you could say that. We were always on the same page. Miya-san was the director and I was…
Miyazaki:
Yeah, we’ve worked together for a long time now, we know each other’s likings pretty well. It was easy to pick the era. We both said “that era” right away - which were 50s and 60s. If we were to use the American cars, we wanted to choose the time which they looked most “American”. Huge and square. It was quite fun for us to draw those models rather than newer models. It is just a material which we’d like to use.
Otsuka:
Among all the items(vehicle?) which appeared in Castle of Cagliostro, I believe the most recent one was the national army’s plane which appeared on the last part of the film - the one that dropped the paratroopers, right?
Miyazaki:
That was not so new either. It was loosely based on the carrier plane called Packet from Korean War. I redesigned it so that it becomes easier to draw for the animator. How can I say, but I feel no urge for drawing new cars of today. I believe Fiat’s design was also peaked in 500.
Otsuka:
That and its predecessors. (still talking about Fiat) The end of the War (again, not mentioning of which war) was a nice time, the Messerschmitt, the Heinkel. I like anything from that period no matter which country they were made in.
Miyazaki:
Again, it is not the nostalgic feeling that we crave. The designs possesses certain charm and character when it is used in animation and comics. [He used the word “personality” -Ray]
Otsuka:
There was a fighter plane called F-86F or something, from the Korean War, the one with round nose… I forgot what it’s called…
Miyazaki:
Sabre.
Otsuka:
Yes, it was Sabre. I feel life and personality up to that plane, but after that, like F-104 and others, they look more like insects than anything. I believe animation films is better suited with roundness in the design. Recently, so called “Mechanic” animations has, sort of….
Interviewer:
They have a lot of sharp edges and spikes.
Otsuka:
Yes, that. Edges and spikes. It seems that many of the animations are heading on that road, but I think the conclusion is not drawn yet among the animators, whether or not if the animation films is the best field to express those figures/forms. Nonetheless, that’s the trend nowadays and everybody is on that bandwagon.
Miyazaki:
60s design is what we grow up with as kids, and it was very close to us. But the kids nowadays are growing up with those edges and spikes. So, to them, Lupin probably feels ancient and dated. Like the samurai movie. So, it was also part of our intention to show them that there was a time like this. Like in American movies, it is frequent to set the time of the story to 30s and so forth. Though It feels funny that the culture and design that we are used to is considered to be old now…
Interviewer:
How about the military cars? I personally know Mr. Otsuka’s name in Hobby Japan (a magazine specialized for plastic models)’s column about Jeeps first, then later realized that you also made Lupin animation.
Otsuka:
Well, I love Jeeps. To tell you the truth, my fascination for Jeep has an interesting background. After the War, the Japanese streets were overwhelmed with Jeeps. I was in so much shock and awe. It was most memorable sight for me. Back then, we only had wood gas generator type cars. The smell made the strongest impression on me. The smell of big rubber tires burned and rubbed against the ground. I was fourteen around that time. So, like these kids nowadays are encountering the robots in TV animation and being fascinated about them, I was having life changing encounters with Jeeps in my time. I cannot grow out of it still now.
I mentioned my version of “Mecha (mechanical items often referred to cars and robots in Japanese TV animation)”, but it can be anything. I think the bottom line is, it is nice to grow up watching something that captures your heart. We wanted to show what we feel passionate and fascinated about to the next generation of people.
I hope it is not too pushy. This is merely a product of our aesthetic sense and we do not intend to change our way of creation/expression. The new generation of people probably draws edges and spikes when they hear the word “Mecha”; however, we have the resistance to that movement/tendency. But that’s just a generation gap, I suppose. It cannot be helped. And I think it is alright.
Interviewer:
So, for Mr. Miyazaki, what was the formative experience to bring in Autogyros and cars? (which is equivalent to the Post War Jeep experience for Mr. Otsuka.)
Otsuka:
Miya-san likes anything a normal boy would like, cars, boats, and caterpillars. I heard an english expression “bolts and nuts guy” and I think that is him. He likes the mechanical structure of them, too. When speaking to an American person, if that person asks “Do you like airplanes?” you can say “I am a bolt and nut type of guy.” and he would understand it all. Same goes for the Jeep. That Jeep has this type of engine, that part is what kind of make, this spring is intriguing, that tire seems to be too big for the body, et cetera, they can go on forever. I think in Japanese, they used to call those people Car Maniacs.
Whether it is cars or anything, there are two types of people. 1) people who speaks of the style from a fashion point of view, and 2) people who goes down to structure. Miya-san is definitely a bolt and nut type of guy. He finds the details like why that wing is shorter than other planes very fascinating. So he always thinks from mechanical/structural standpoint. Like, “Would this machine really fly in reality?” In recent animation, there are lots of big robots. I cannot stand that sort of things. I believe Miya-san’s probably thinking the same. We first think, “There is no way those machines can even exist. And they wouldn’t move like that.” Do people find it attractive to see “stuff like that” can actually fly in the animation? Or would it be more attractive if more mechanically realistic and sound stuff move around and fly in the animation?
On the same token, I also think that simply imitating the item which exists in reality is also dull and boring. When creating animation, there are those who says we should draw things as realistic as we can. But then, they should just take photo pictures and forget about drawing animations.
The time that we started making the First TV series, when they draw a car in the animation, it looked more like a match box rather than a car. We could not tell if it was a Toyota Crown or Nissan Blue Bird. So we decided to put certain identity to the car. We started adding extra details and drawing them apart. For example, like he is driving a Mercedes Benz.
“Bolt and Nut Guys talk more.”
Interviewer:
I felt the balance between “Bolt and Nut” sense and realism mixed into the animation in certain scenes in the film, such as when Lupin saves Clarisse. Lupin throws a wire as he falls off the cliff. That seems to be a very common action, then he opens his belt buckle and instead of climbing up the wall, he descends down. Dynamically (physically?) speaking, that small crank will not hold two people upwards, so he is basically using the mechanism as a buffer to safely land.
Otsuka:
That is a matter of “leap” in animation. If we fill the scene with all fiction, it will be too unrealistic. We have to mix the fiction with reality well to make it more interesting. In Conan (Future Boy Conan), we draw the scene in which a character put a wing in between his toes and hung on. It is ridiculous to think that would work in reality, but if it works as long as we draw it well and use all the stage effects. That lie becomes the core of entertainment in that scene.
Miyazaki:
In the case of Lupin, he is a thief. So he makes his living off of stealing things from the ordinary and normal people who make their living in legally proper way. It is bound to reality. The more we draw the ordinary people, the more the unusualness of a thief can stand out and shine. If we wander off and draw a preposterous world and people instead too much, the novelty and shock value of a thief would disappear.
So we first have to create and establish a quite decent, ordinary part in the film. If we focus too much on the lolita complex, abnormal love story or rely too much on some extraordinary gadgets inventions, Lupin’s charm as a thief would become bleak. First and foremost, he needs to solve the difficult situations with his own mind and body. Even when he is using a gadgets, it has to be something he might come up with and invented himself. Otherwise he would not be a thief. The whole film itself would be a Sci-fi. Who would like to watch a James Bond who went to outer space*? It would be so boring. He would be dressed in space suits and cannot even make out with a girl that easily, you know? (laugh)
Even when drawing the mechanical items, such as cars, planes, tanks and battleships, the engineers invented them all. They are the designers. I would not give any credits to the animators who simply drew them well on the screen. I think it is very important to keep in mind, that the animators should be focused on how to use those items in his animation rather than just sketching the item to perfection.
If Fiat 500 comes out on the screen and moves exactly how a real Fiat 500 would move, then it is pointless. Then it would be just showing a fashion statement of the creator that he likes this car over any other car. But if that Fiat 500 moves like a certain character and his mood, it would be a character on its own. So no matter how broken it may appears, how many window panels its missing, as long as it does its best, it is fine and charming, I think. I wonder how boring it would have been if we picked a brand new supercar for the speed car chase scene at the beginning of the film.
[Original: "Who would like to watch a 007 who went to outer space?" And this is obviously a knock on Moonraker, which was actually very successful in the box office. -Ed.]
Otsuka:
I am sure the certain thrill and excitement would be taken away.
Miyazaki:
I went to Italy recently and I was surprise to see the same car running on the streets in even worse conditions. (laugh)
“The future robot soldier Lambda provided an idea.”
Interviewer:
Speaking of “Mecha”, the vehicles which appeared in the Second TV series (“Albatross: Wings of Death/Farewell, My Dear Lupin”) were amazing. That Lambda was very robot like.
Miyazaki:
To tell you the truth, I heard some rumors that those robot soldiers already exists and are in action for certain country’s military operations. According to some foreign magazine of army and weapon, they do not necessarily look like humans or walk like we do, but you leave them on the ground and once the enemy approach, they sense that and start attacking them. The armor plate is made of the complex material which I have no idea what it is. The technology is so advanced and the engines are becoming smaller and lighter. That, coupled with computer technology, it would be unimaginable what kind of weapons which people can invent.
So what if those robot soldiers, let’s say a hundred of them, appears in our town by some error? (laugh) Not to mention that they were given ordered to “kill” and they have method of finding the source of energy on their own. They can go to gas station in the middle of the night and suck the gasoline out. And when passers-by spotted them, they would turn around and their eyes shines as if saying “you saw me.”
Interviewer:
Lambda’s face has a beautiful streamline which looks like a propeller spinner.
Miyazaki:
Generally speaking, people who like “Mecha” are the introverts in their childhood. Maybe they crave for power that’s much stronger than them because they are weak. Gun lovers are much the same way. It is almost like a boy’s complex that’s developed for male genitals. I heard that even in toy stores, the tanks won’t sell unless it has a huge cannon head. The plastic models of the planes sells more if it is equipped with sharper spinner. I wonder if that also have anything to do with sex symbols.
Interviewer:
Perhaps, it is a male (boys) symbolism?
Miyazaki:
In the movie Star Wars, the Rebels’ X-Wing had sharp lines whereas the Empire’s counterpart had round edges. If you draw the symbol of power and justice, it has to be sharp-edged perhaps? Among the plane maniacs, the popular ones are always the ones which have sharp spin covers such as Messerschmidt and Spitfires.
In that sense, I feel less edgy and old because I always like something with round figures. I am definitely not in the mainstream.
Interviewer:
How did you come up with Lambda’s design at first?
Miyazaki:
I do not remember well, but Max Fleischer’s Superman had something similar in its design. They also come flying. When imagining Lambda, I wanted to make them look slow and heavy almost as if they are barely managing to fly. The rockets were not good because the movement would be too fast and smooth when flying. And I remembered the Fleischers' cartoon. I saw it only once as a kid, but remembered it forever. So I decided to go along with that design. Except, the ground should not be breaking in half. (laugh) [I do not know the reference of this metaphor here. -Ray]
The robots appears in animation tend to transform and be something like a toy. I did not want to do follow that step.
Otsuka:
There is no reality to it. A robot that weighs a ton walks and leaves no footprints on the ground, to be seems ridiculous and unbearable for me.
Miyazaki:
I heard from someone that even Fleischer had a model for his robots in that episode. “Le Roi et l'Oiseau” (1952 Animation) and “Ōgon Bat” (1930 Paperdrama) had better robots in them. I was drawn to those images more. So, if the majority of the population is drawn for the robots which sells more toys, I would start the opposite trend by showing my ideal robots… (laugh)
Interviewer:
Their movements seemed somewhat humorous.
Miyazaki:
That is due to Lambda’s role in the storyline. They are meant to be a weapon of destruction but they are also still a prototype. I also added the function to carry the heroine on, so there was a limitation in the shape. I could not make it look too cool nor too monster-ish. I would assume the real robot soldier will look more scary and grotesque. It would probably not even be bipedal creature, it would be closer to a spider perhaps. I can not make a story of what if THAT kind of robot soldier appears in the middle of Shinjuku in the realm of animation.
Fortunately for me, the young crews at Telecom Animation were so eager to create that story, they decided to see the town and high rise in their own eyes without anyone’s order. Even when doing such thing makes their jobs harder than necessary, they decided to do it anyway. I believe this episode’s* success is also attributed to those guys hard work and passion. I am the director and people often mistakenly think I made it solely on my own, but it is a team work after all.
I can tell you a thousand reasons why I put Fiat 500 in the film, but that doesn’t do any justice to the film. The fate of the film is up to the techniques of animators to actually translate that onto the film. They are the ones who made it look lively and believable.
[*Original translation was "film's" -Ed.]
“Count Cagliostro and his Autogyro”
Interviewer:
How about the Count Cagliostro’s Autogyro? The Gyros I know are something that look more like a bamboo-copter and plane combined.
Miyazaki:
To be honest, that was the hardest. I started off thinking about making his plane more like a normal seaplane, however, if I were to park the seaplane on top of the castle, I would've also had to make a long runway like the one seen in an aircraft carrier. So that was out of the question. But I also could not settle to a helicopter because it is too round in shape. See, that is the opposite of the sex symbol figure which we talked about earlier. (laugh) Unless you are talking about the latest, more aggressive, assault-type helicopters. Generally speaking, most viewers would agree helicopters are tame and boring. Then I came up with the idea of the autogyro. It is nicely sharp and doesn’t require a long runway to take off or land. It was perfect. Though I feared most young people wouldn’t know what it was.
In fact, autogyros are a thing of the past. It was used only for a little while among small populations. But there was something similar to it in France once. It was made before and during WWII. It was mainly used for postal service and that was it. So I tweaked the details of that a little bit and changed the form.
Originally, I was thinking of creating a battle scene in the sky on the autogyro, so I left the canopy out and left it open. That would allow the pilot to easily come in and out of the plane.
Speaking of the types, there are far more types of planes than tanks, so we find something interesting more often than not. That gyro has ramjet engine and intermeshing rotors, so in case sudden takeoffs are necessary, it would work like a helicopter as well. On top of all that, it has a propeller to go forward. So it is a product of imagination and ideals.
Interviewer:
Even as a status symbol, I thought it was well-suited for a count’s vehicle.
Miyazaki:
This is my belief, but I feel that the rich people in Europe owns some aircrafts and boats and drive them around freely on their spare time…
Otsuka:
I agree.
Miyazaki:
They might even own a sport car and driving them around. I think it is only a Japanese thing that rich people have a chauffeur and not drive around by their own.
Otsuka:
I think many people consider it as their hobby.
Interviewer:
So what’s the background story for the Count’s Autogyro? Did he find a fixer-upper and restored it himself?
Miyazaki:
No, he did not find it antique shop or anything. He actually bought it when it first came out on the market. Of course, he maintained it well all those years, probably upgrading the engines, customizing it to suit his needs better using his experience with helicopters. He spent time and money to made it his own - the one and only of its kind. This is just how I imagine it.
Otsuka:
Cagliostro exists somewhere among European countries. So I think it is definitely possible that there is a plane like that exists somewhere.
Miyazaki:
I believe so, too. We may be surprised by what we can find in Europe.
Otsuka:
In Europe, I find old trucks from war time still being used as good as new ones.
“Strenuous efforts of Fiat500 and Citroen 2CV.”
Interviewer:
Speaking of old cars, Fiat 500 still exists in Europe? We rarely find them in Japan nowadays.
Miyazaki:
Yes. That is a nice car. It fits perfectly in the narrow alleys of Rome - very picturesque. Otsuka-san was driving that car in 120km per hour.
Otsuka:
No, that was only 90km per hour. Now that I think of it, it is not a speed driving car. Though I was driving it until the engine broke on me one day.
Miyazaki:
Yes, we were on Tomei Highway with Otsuka-san driving it. It almost felt like the car is just “rolling”. (laugh)
Otsuka:
Once I was racing someone who was driving a Nissan Fairlady because he taunted me that “your car won’t be able to keep up”. So I got upset and I chased him on the way to Nagoya. Soon, after an interchange, the gasket blew out. (laugh)
Interviewer:
How many cars did you own so far?
Otsuka:
I owned two Fiat 500. A Fiat 850 special, a Citroen GS, a Fiat 128 and then…
Miyazaki:
Then you downgraded and settled to…
Otsuka:
Yes, “downgraded” to (laugh) ... Isuzu. Oh, and I also own a Dodge. It is a huge army type truck.
Interviewer:
You own a truck?
Otsuka:
Yes, it weighs ¾ ton. It looks like a Jeep. That one is a troublemaker. One is enough. I have blisters trying to fix it all the time.
Interviewer:
How about you, Mr. Miyazaki?
Miyazaki:
My very first car was Citroen 2CV. There was a hole in the bottom so I covered it with a tin panel. The door and cover opens suddenly while you are driving. I still drive 2CV and the current one is my fourth one. Oh, I also had a…
Otsuka:
Toyota Pablica
Miyazaki:
Yes, for about two years. That was no good. I also inherited Otsuka-san’s Citroen GS and drove it for about three years.
Otsuka:
Oh yeah, that too.
Miyazaki:
Other than those times, I always drive 2CV.
Interviewer:
You mean, that Citroen DS[sic], which looks like a slug?
Otsuka:
Yes, it has a streamline which makes it look like a slug. The pick up on the car was so slow, every time you stop at a light, the other cars passes you by and leave you behind.
Miyazaki:
We showed this film’s car-chase scene to Italian National Television people once. Then they said to us, that we should show this to Fiat CEO and ask for money. They guarantee that he would pay money for that part... (laugh)
But if we are making the film in Italy, I would not have selected a Fiat. I would have selected a Subaru or something; Subaru 360 or Mazda Carol maybe. Nowadays everybody has a car, but before that people were poor. So even if someone managed to buy a car, they had to carpool with other people. People were driving around Mazda Carol with four people inside. It was really tight space, so it was a hell with four adults. They also lowered the height to make more room for the feet. They tied the dissected muffler by wires and driving with loud noise.
Otsuka:
That was embarrassing/pathetic.
Miyazaki:
In the meantime, you go to Fuji Circuit, and find Subaru 360 lowered and the engine cover opened to make it like a wing. (?)
Interviewer:
Ah, like a stabilizer for racing cars.
Miyazaki:
I don’t know if that actually worked. Nonetheless, they had two thin gas exhaust coming out on each sides making it look more like prepared for the race. The Carols were cut low pretty much the same way. They were painted colorfully like in pink and gold. If you take off the roof of Subaru 360, it resembles a racing car because there is only the bottom curb thats remaining, it was so funny. They all make loud sound like race cars but the speed was nothing like it. It was so slow.
They made high pitched noise just running the straight line in front of the main stand. When they get to the hairpin curve, they were all dead serious and actually start spinning around, that was hilarious. There is nothing like that anymore. That time was the best.
Otsuka:
Yeah, on Sundays, everybody was going to Fuji to just to “roll” their cars.
Miyazaki:
If people brought Suzuki Fronte or Honda N360, it was all over. There was no chance Subaru could win against them.
Interviewer:
How long ago was that? You two were working together by then?
Miyazaki:
I believe it was early 70s… maybe the end of 60s?
Otsuka:
I think it was 68, or 69. We started working together much earlier than that.
Miyazaki:
For my first car, it was Otsuka-san who told me that I should buy something “more fun/interesting”. He told me that there is a car called Citroen 2CV, which was in a movie Les Amants (1959 France). So we went out to look at the car in a used car dealership, and found this old car which was sitting in a car shop longer than on the road which also had problem with rain coming inside.
Otsuka:
Yeah, we had a lot of trouble with cars and works together back then.
We are different from all those car maniacs out there now. We do not talk about Isuzu Piazza which just came out or RX-7. We were fascinated by the foreign cars like Fiat 500. That was our thing. I am sure young people now similarly are finding something that they like as well.
Miyazaki:
Probably so…
Otsuka:
Time is always changing. We cannot change that simple fact.
Miyazaki:
Even tanks look boring nowadays.
Otsuka:
They lost uniqueness. We cannot tell them apart. For example, try comparing Soviet Union’s T62 and American M-60A1. They all look the same and built the same, size and specs.
During the war, up until mid 40s, Germans made Panzerkampfwagen IV, English
had Matilda (MkII). They were very distinct and I liked them that way, makes it more interesting. I always gravitates toward interesting/fun way of doing anything. Tanks are just a huge mass of irons. The concept of itself already amuses me.
“Hustle Punch drove a tank in the outskirts of Mt. Fuj.”
Interviewer:
Have you ever been on a tank?
Otsuka:
Yes, I have. I just came back from the trip to to ride M60AI in United States.
Miyazaki:
We also went on a field trip together to Self Defense Army’s Tank Camp near Mt. Fuji saying this is for our work. At the time, we were working on a piece that had nothing to do with tanks though…
Otsuka:
I recall that was Light Tank M24.
Interview:
So you went out to see the tanks, but did not used the sketches in the anime at all?
Miyazaki:
Yes. We could not, even if we wanted to. It was an animal anime called “Hustle Punch.” It had nothing to do with tanks. (laugh) We told the people in the army that we will make movies with tanks and asked them to give us a ride. I learned that it was not nice. Once was enough for me.
Otsuka:
I rode Type 74 in Self Defense Army camp three years ago. The inside was really tight. I also got inside the Hetzer (Jagdpanzer 38), German one.
Miyazaki:
Oh yeah, the hunting tank. Really?
Otsuka:
Yes. It was at Fort Knox.
Interviewer:
Do they actually drive those on display?
Otsuka:
They do. It was roomier than I imagined inside.
Interviewer:
Those [Hetzer] don’t have gun turrets, so they can make room for inside, right?
Otsuka:
I have tried going into Soviet Union’s T-55 also in United States. They captured one in Middle East and kept it for their research. So I asked them to show me the inside a bit and went inside. That tank did not have a basket underneath the gun torrets.
Miyazaki:
They don’t?!
Otsuka:
Exactly, they don’t. So the captain and gunner always have to work in sync to turn. It would be labor intensive operation.
Interviewer:
That sounds typical of Soviet Union.
Otsuka:
Type 74 and M60 had baskets and gyratory torrets. They also moves very smoothly. So no matter which way the tank is facing, it can aim a point in steady motion. That was impressive.
Interviewer:
Type 74 also have a stabilizer and height adjuster, too.
Miyazaki:
That is definitely a sniper tank.
Otsuka:
M60 has a auto target function as well. You select the target and it will keep aiming the same target even if the tank is moving around. That auto targeting system moved very agile. While the tank is motion, it keeps moving around adjusting the aim.
Miyazaki:
I was comparing the price of Type 74 and a normal house in Japan. You can buy that tank in the price of 10 average houses. Which is priced unreasonable? I believe the housing price is priced unreasonably high. The tank costs approximately 340,000,000 JPY.
Otsuka:
Yes, it is cheap, compared to airplanes.
Miyazaki:
Well, not exactly cheap, but you can make a two hour animation film in a price of a tank.
Otsuka:
How many Cagliostros can we make with that budget...?
Miyazaki:
One Cagliostro was enough. More than enough. (laugh)
“Cooking a rattlesnake in the middle of the desert.”
Interview:
Good thing the topic returned to Cagliostro. Well, I personally did not mind spending more time listening to you talking about “Mechas” but…(laugh)
Otsuka:
Changing the subject, I spent days traveling from Arizona to Seattle, then to new Mexico recently.
Miyazaki:
Shhh. Your wife will find out about it all.
Otsuka:
I rented a Jeep and drive through desert with 4WD. I also borrowed a shotgun and a gun called Black Hawk and shoot it in the air in the middle of desert. 60 bullets in each belt on both sides of my shoulders. I used all of them. When I told my local friend I used all up, they were shocked.
Interviewer:
Black Hawk is made by Luger? I heard it is a relatively cheaper revolver. So if you shoot too much, the barrel would be out of balance, wouldn't it?
Otsuka:
All I did was shoot a rattlesnake and ate it afterwards.
Interviewer:
You ate it? Wow. How did you find the rattlesnake? By a chance? Was it coming up to you?
Otsuka:
No. Another friend of mine (American) and I were driving through the desert in Jeeps, and he stopped his car first. Then I pulled up and stopped the car also. Then he told me “Yasuo, be quiet.” So I turned the engine off completely. Then I realized there was no sound. It was silent. The desert was a place with no sound. Although, in the morning, the coyotes, or some other animals were barking, so it did not seem quit.
Anyway, when I was listening to the wind, I heard something else. The snakes moving around in the sand. We threw rocks in random directions. Me and my friend. Until the snakes stand up to see what fell on the ground. They comes out of the sand by that sound thinking it is food. So we walk up to it and start shooting in turn. Bam, no hit. Bam, not hit. Then I finally hit it. The head of the snake disappeared. So I peeled off its skin with a knife - it felt like a plastic bag - and grilled and ate there. I bring soy sauce everywhere with me. So I ate it with soy sauce.
Miyazaki:
Did it smell?
Otsuka:
Yeah, it smells fishy. But I finished two in the end.
“Future plan and new type of product.”
Interviewer:
This has probably been asked many times, but what kind of animation you would like to create in the future? If you do not have to worry about financial success of the animation or the pressure from the producers and sponsors.
Miyazaki:
I would like to create an animation with Samurai in it. A story that has never been told by anyone or any folktale. A large scale epic story. Being Japanese, I think our best hero would be Samurai. Not a typical who served for lords, or given the title of Samurai by family. The one who used his mind to determine his fate. I think there were some who could do that. But these heroes are gone after the war.
Whether people find it entertaining or not, there used to be lot more stories of those types of heroes before the war, like Jutaro Iwami who defeated the Monkey Monster and Tota Tawara who fought the monster centipede.
Instead, they draw Samurais “from an ordinary businessman’s perspective”, or reevaluate Ieyasu Tokugawa from “a business owner’s perspective.”
So I dream that I can make a historical epic tale based in the mythical time, where we believed some unknown roughness existed out there, somewhat like Sci-fi theme. I think that kind of story might become a story which appeal to everyone in every nation.
If you create “Mechas” in Sci-fi, not matter how much you change the design, they will never be greater than the starships of rebels in Star Wars. The world have seen that, done that. So what’s the point of trying to mimic that? I would like to find a new frontier of creation.
In my image, Japan was most energetic when a group of man called Samurai was rising up among the population. If his father was defeated, the son rose to fight; if the son fell, the father stood up to revenge. That sort of vigorous energy. I would like to create a character which has something in that time.
Otsuka:
I would like to continue assist Miya-san’s work alongside.
Miyazaki:
Samurai armors became the artifacts to display and enjoy the aesthetics nowadays, but it used to be something really rough and robust. To wear something like that makes you feel like you have unmeasurable secret power. I would like to rediscover the world of Japanese history. I feel I can create something totally different and new.
Yes, Toei Productions made new type of Chambara [sword fights] and Ninja, but I am talking something different from those.
Otsuka:
Something only animation film can create.
Miyazaki:
If we could make something like that and it became a hit, then we will move onto the international era.
Interviewer:
I see. A Japanese hero take. Back to Lupin and this film, how did you come up with the name Cagliostro?
Miyazaki:
It is from a novel called “La Comtesse de Cagliostro” by Maurice Leblanc. Louis XIV or XVI, I forgot, but in his time, there was a swindler who tried to sell the elixir of life in court.
It was one of the early enemies of Arsène Lupin. She was also a beautiful woman. Even Arsène fell in love with her before he started his career as a thief.
And I like the sound of the name Cagliostro, it sounds meaningful. So I used it when I was searching for a name for this pseudo European country.
Interviewer:
I see. Lupin the Third is also believed to be the grandson of that thief, so I guess it would fit. Thank you so much for all the interesting talks.
(June 4th, 1981/ Interviewer, Writer: H.A.R.D aka Nobuyuki Takahashi / As published in the mook-artbook Lupin the Third: The Castle of Cagliostro IN WONDERLAND)